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In the second and final part of an exclusive interview with Radio Tamazuj, US Special Envoy for Sudan Tom Perillo said he hopes more solutions on Sudan can be found at the Geneva talks scheduled for August 14.
He also hopes that all parties on the Sudanese battlefield can unite and accept a nationwide ceasefire.
Edited excerpts follow:
Q: There are calls for sending international troops to Sudan. What do you think of this?
A: I’m hearing more and more of these ideas from the Sudanese people. Why not use Chapter VII, why not use peacekeeping forces? I think the general consensus among those who watch the Security Council is that there’s no political will to do that. Many Sudanese are willing, but it’s true that not all of these efforts have been successful in the past, but they’ve been a critical part of saving lives and stabilizing parts of the country.
In our meetings with Sudanese outside of Sudan and even inside Sudan, I increasingly hear the question: Why is the international community not considering these options?
We hope to find more solutions for Sudan by participating in peace talks and seeing all parties come together to accept a cessation of violence throughout the country. In addition, we can continue to call on the international community to ask the question, if Chapter 7 is not adopted, what is the solution? The solution may be that we just passively observe the level of hunger among civilians, but we will continue to work within our capabilities to try to stabilize the current situation.
A lot of work has been going on behind the scenes over the last few months to build different types of regional coalitions for peace, and this is an opportunity to test that. You have seen over the last few weeks, since the invitation was made public, that the Sudanese people, including those who consider themselves close to the Sudanese Armed Forces, are desperate for peace, and now is the best time to negotiate, otherwise we will see more instability.
Q: We often hear about Sudanese Islamists planning to return to power. How much influence do they have in Sudanese politics today?
A: The concerns that many Sudanese, and many people in the region, have about the influence of Islamism or the influence of Islamic extremism are real. I think that is very clear in this context. There are a lot of different overlapping things that people are referring to, whether it’s identified, particularly about various Islamic extremist actors, whether it’s the former National Congress Party (NCP) or maybe even a resurgent NCP, and also simply the question of authoritarianism, which may not have much to do with Islamism but may be part of a similar alliance.
All that said, I think some of the experts have touched on this again and tried to make the point that even within the many actors in Sudan and the region, they mean different things at different times. It is clear that the Sudanese people do not want external actors to dictate their future and certainly do not want to fuel internal conflict.
On either side of this conflict, people do not want to see violent extremists rule or undermine the state, nor do they want to see the kind of failed state dynamics that have long caused so much suffering in Somalia and elsewhere in the region. That is a real concern, and it is one that has resurfaced in the context of these peace talks.
Q: In recent months, we have seen Iran and Russia intervene in the Sudan crisis. Is this because of the influence of Islamist forces on the military?
A: First of all, when you talk about Sudan, you are referring to the Sudanese people. I don’t think the Sudanese people want their country to be influenced by Russia and Iran, but by the UAE or other countries.
I think the Sudanese people have been making it clear for many years, and especially since 2019, that they want the Sudanese people to determine their own future. That path is viable, but the civilian transition was interrupted. What you hear more often is that the Sudanese want to be able to determine the future of their country, rather than having it determined by external actors, especially those with more divisive and extreme agendas.
I think that many civilians, whether from the north, south, east, west or center, are watching this. I think it is a critical moment to see how some of the key leaders view putting the Sudanese people first. I think it is also a good time to prioritize peace because if Sudan takes this path, it will have a bright future.
Q: There are reports of famine in parts of Sudan. Have you experienced this?
A: There’s a good technical answer to that question, so I won’t make it up. But obviously, we think that, whatever you want to call it, the situation is dire, and it’s clear that people are starving. When I was at the Chad border a few weeks ago, I could see that from the kids crossing the border.
I think the international community has stepped up in France and provided a lot of aid around the world and in the region. But this is from phase one. So we still need to get more aid to where we can reach and continue to increase our ability to reach areas that we can’t reach. And of course, we hope that both the SAF and the RSF will start to prioritize this humanitarian access and protection.
Q: The Sudanese government has been denying that there is a famine in Sudan. What is your response?
A: I find it odd that of all the aspects of this crisis, attempts are being made to deny the idea that a famine is happening, including the idea that there is a distribution problem. If I am a mother with a child who has not eaten for seven days in South Kordofan, that is a famine. I think there are good reasons to say, for example, that the main cause of this famine is the RSF destroying farmland, burning crops and destroying warehouses, but that some of the decisions of the SAF, particularly around border access and cross-line issues, have also exacerbated the situation.
The claim that no one is starving in Sudan right now is completely false and people can see plenty of evidence for themselves. Yes, distribution is a problem, which is why we need humanitarian groups to be able to access across borders and lines.
What do you think is causing the distribution problem? This is a terrible and unacceptable solution. Trying to deny that it exists is just behind the thoughts and explanations.
Q: Have you been in contact with General Burhan of the Sudanese Armed Forces or any senior government officials? Are they asking for anything?
A: Yes, we maintain a certain consistency or respect, which is currently involved in the efforts to mediate the negotiations, and I cannot elaborate on that. But we have been very flexible and proactive in trying to facilitate the Sudanese Armed Forces leadership for several months, and we will continue to do so and continue to seek access to Port Sudan to find a way for both sides to participate.
Q: What is the situation of RSF leader General Mohammed Hamdan Dagalo?
A: Yes, we have extended an invitation to him and he has accepted it. We have also provided both parties with extended pre-meeting time to prepare for the negotiations, and so far they have engaged with us constructively.
We have been in communication with the SAF leadership but have not received an official response. There are rumors that they may have communicated a response, but let’s see if this comes true.
We talked with both sides for five or six weeks about what would be a new formal initiative and giving them time before inviting people to participate. But obviously when we talk about invitations, the real question is whether we are serious about stopping the violence. Our hope is not to get both sides to come to Geneva. The focus is on getting a peace agreement for Sudan. We will certainly use all of our energy and connections in the United States to do our part, but obviously it will be done with the Sudanese people who have been so keen to promote this. I have had the opportunity to meet with thousands of Sudanese now, including those in the country, over and over again.
The overwhelming message is: please stop the gunfire, provide food and medicine, please protect the people, and in the short term, there is an urgent need for a political process that the Sudanese people must control. We will move forward based on what we hear from the Sudanese people and in consultation with all parties involved.
I really want to commend Secretary Blinken and President Biden in the White House for showing real leadership here and saying this is what has to happen. We’re going to continue to do everything we can to help the Sudanese people resolve this crisis.
Q: Why were the talks moved to Geneva instead of Jeddah? Will this exacerbate the fragile relationship between Saudi Arabia and the UAE?
A: We will continue to work closely with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. They are very committed to the Sudanese people and to peace. There was general agreement that Geneva was a very good fit for this round for a variety of reasons, and we continue to view it as an extension of the Jeddah process.
As people do in a conflict that has lasted 15 months, you try to adapt and adjust based on the lessons learned. We think, and the Saudis agree, that we can trust the positive lessons learned from several processes and contributions. Nobody cares who gets the credit for it, we only care that we can resolve this crisis. So we want to learn from every experience, and we see this as an ongoing effort to try to build on past successes, and we hope that we can not only achieve our goals, but that we can reach an agreement again. That is the key, and that is the standard of justice to the Sudanese people.
Even if we face more obstacles, that’s not going to stop us. We’re going to continue to adjust to the situation, but I think even in the last few weeks, we’ve seen how much the Sudanese people are hungry for peace. They’re hungry for leadership and for leadership that will lead them to peace, and I think, as we see in the headlines every day, every day that we wait has a cost, so for us, now is the right time to do it. In fact, yesterday was the right time to do it, but today is still better, and we look forward to, and hopefully, have some success.
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